AVO Exec and Team Meeting ========================= ESO - Council Room: Weds 10 Sept 2002 Present: Mark Allen MA Piero Benvenuti PB Luis da Costa LC Markus Dolenski MD Daniel Egret DE Francoise Genova FG Kris Gorski KG Jonas Haase JH Martin Hill MH Marco Leoni ML Tony Linde TL Alberto Micol AM Yannick Mellier YM Francesco Pierfederici FP Benoit Pirenne BP Peter Quinn PQ Anita Richards AR Guy Rixon GR Nic Walton NW Draft Minutes: PQ/NW 11 Sep 2002 This 3rd meeting of the AVO project executive and team opened at 09.30 List of Actions ACTION 01-10/09/02: due 1 Nov 2002: PB - WA1 report on the SRM and definition of the science drivers for the Demonstration programme ACTION 02-10/09/02: due 1 Nov 2002: FG - WA2 report including progress on the working prototype of inter-operable European archives ACTION 03-10/09/02: due 1 Nov 2002: AL - WA3 report including progress on benchmarks in network, storage and data-mining tasks ACTION 04-10/09/02: ALL - send any AVO papers to PQ for inclusion on the AVO web. ACTION 05-10/09/02: PB - issue call to SWG re Jan 20/21 demo ACTION 06-10/09/02: PQ/AL - progress future IVOA ontology workshop. ACTION 07-10/09/02: AL - NGAST and technology choices clarification ACTION 08-10/09/02: AL/FG - establish CDS contact for Ontology work ACTION 09-10/09/02: MD - update baseline description of the demo to explicitly state that the demo will include the generation of SED plots. ACTION 10-10/09/02: MD- define which capabilities in the Jan 2003 demo will be locally accessible c.f. externally accessible. ACTION 11-10/09/02: AR - check possible (limited) use of mobile phones in Jodrell. ACTION 12-10/09/02: PB - the 20/21 Demo is arranged under the auspices of the WA1 SWG. PB to issue invites to the SWG, GOODS science team, media representatives, AVO Exec. ACTION 13-10/09/02: PQ - Exec meeting #4 agenda item - continuing availability of the demo post 20/21 Jan 2003. ACTION 14-10/09/02: ALL - send PQ for collation suggestions as to future IVOA standards - e.g. Astronomical Query Language, cut out service etc. ACTION 15-10/09/02: PQ/PB - Status of AstroVirtel for Dec 2002 Exec meeting Agenda item ACTION 16-10/09/02: MD - mailing lists located on the AVO Wiki. List of Outstanding Actions Action 07-02/04/02: OGSA report - discussed in WA3 report - section 6. ONGOING Action 11-15/11/01: AVO PR - this is an ongoing action - progress has been made via the Wiki, conferences etc ONGOING WELCOME 1. PQ welcomed all to the meeting. OUTSTANDING ACTIONS 2. PQ review the outstanding actions from Meeting #2 held in Paris, 2 April 2002. Action 01-02/04/02: VOTable release - Version 1.0 of VOTable was released as stated by the NVO/AVO on 15 Apr 2002 CLOSED Action 02-02/04/02: Upgrade of AVO web site - good progress has recently been made in this area as reported by KG under AOB CLOSED Action 03-02/04/02: WA1 to define science test cases for Jan 03 demo - a working group of the SWG, chaired by NW, generated a set of science requirements for the AVO Jan 2003 Demo - this is further discussed in section 8. CLOSED Action 04-02/04/02: WP definition and logistics for Jan 03 demo - this is discussed further under section 8. CLOSED Action 05-02/04/02: IVOA announcement for the June 2003 VO Conference - this happened, see attached paper - the IVOA was formally constituted at a meeting June 14 2003, with representatives from the VO projects of AstroGrid, AVO, NVO, GAVO, CVO, India-VO, RVO, eAA. CLOSED Action 06-02/04/02: Work effort matrix update - draft attached as Appendix ? CLOSED Action 07-02/04/02: OGSA report - discussed in WA3 report - section 6. ONGOING Action 08-02/04/02: WA2 data needs for Jan 03 demo - see section 8. CLOSED Action 09-02/04/02: AVO Phase-B IoE for FP6 - this was submitted - see attached paper and discussion in section 12. CLOSED Action 01-15/11/01: GRIDSTART docs to be placed on the AVO web - this is happening with the new www/euro-vo.org site - see AOB section 13.1 CLOSED Action 06-15/11/01: work effort matrix input to PQ - see above under Action 06-02/04/02 CLOSED Action 11-15/11/01: AVO PR - this is an ongoing action - progress has been made via the Wiki, conferences etc ONGOING Action 12-15/11/01: AVO web update - see above 02-02/04/02 CLOSED WORK AREA REPORTS 3. WA0 report - PQ 3.1 PQ gave an update on some key milestones leading up to the Nov 15 2002 submission of the year one AVO report to the EC. - referring back to the original EU proposal By the 1 Nov PQ needs inputs for final report from the WA managers. PQ will make the draft available before submission for comment. ACTION 01-10/09/02: due 1 Nov 2002: PB - WA1 report on the SRM and definition of the science drivers for the Demonstration programme ACTION 02-10/09/02: due 1 Nov 2002: FG - WA2 report including progress on the working prototype of inter-operable European archives ACTION 03-10/09/02: due 1 Nov 2002: AL - WA3 report including progress on benchmarks in network, storage and data-mining tasks PQ noted that he would cover Financial and Personnel issues. 3.2 PQ distributed an updated Work Effort matrix valid Sep 2002. TL gave revised figures for AstroGrid effort which were noted. PQ noted that areas of concern include the current lack of a WA1 AVO scientist hire and identification of the ECF redeploy in WA1. 3.3 The Paris 23/24 Oct 2002 Opticon will discuss FP6 proposals. PQ and Gerry Gilmore have agreed that AVO will not need Opticon endorsement for its FP6 proposal. 3.4 The AVO Web - has been worked upon - see AOB section 13. YM noted that publications published under the auspices of the AVO should be centrally collated by the project and copies held in the AVO web area. ACTION 04-10/09/02: ALL - send any AVO papers to PQ for inclusion on the AVO web. 3.5 PQ noted that Nature are planning a major article on VO's - PQ has given some names to him and so expect contact from Geoffrey Brumfiel 3.6 The IVOA meeting was held in June 2002 - see further in section 9 4. WA1 report - PB [ppt] 4.1 PB reported on the development of the science requirements for the Jan 2003 demo product and the draft implementation plan. The Science definition of the demo product was led by a SWG sub group chaired by NW. The demo product will focus on providing accessible tools to work on multi-wavelength data for the GOODS fields (CDF-S, HDF-N) and the LMC. PB noted a number of issues: visualisation, preview, colour-colour, SED PB noted that the outline implementation plan was to use Aladin as a basis of the demo tool thus - an AVO precursor: - create 2 AVO data cubes - limited in FOV, but multi-lambda and homogeneous (GOODS, LMC). - demo will be an evolving prototype - in PB's view - when you make a cutout all the data in the stack will be loaded - a sliding cursor gives interactive SEDs of objects under the cursor. - further tools for fitting, re-extraction, training sets - all data will be distributed - overview of the currently available GOODS data is located on the AVO web site. 4.2 Target archives currently include: ISO, Merlin, ING WFS, ESO/EIS, XMM, ESO, ST-ECF FG noted that Aladin has recently been updated with some major new features - contours + colour composition. Also, CDS is collaborating with the Indian VO in the development of an application of VOTable 4.3 In discussion it was noted that the AVO should aim for a good presence of the AVO SWG at the Jan 20/21 2003 demo in Jodrell. ACTION 05-10/09/02: PB - issue call to SWG re Jan 20/21 demo 5. WA2 report - FG [ppt] 5.1 FG gave an update on interoperability developments. VOTable is now gaining wide acceptance both in the USA and Europe. A number of services are now available to handle and process VOTable output. CDS is collaborating with the Indian VO in the development of VOTable tools. 5.2 current hot topics include: - web services - AstroGrid DB task force - glu in the ws context - UCD's - one, a few, many? - data model (idha/cfa) - space-time, coords, cone search - resource and service metadata - Bob Hannisch for the NVO has a prelim doc - AVO will need to review this 5.3 Aladin is now linked to a number of target archives, including: iso, merlin, int wfs, eso/eis, xmm, eso, st-ecf, Aladin has a number of new features: contours + colour composition 5.4.PQ noted that the IVOA meeting 10 Jan 2003 would focus on a preliminary list of standards. It was vital that the AVO project identify areas requiring standards as soon as possible. 5.5 FG noted that there would be a WA2 meeting at the CDS 30 Sept + 1 Oct 2002. The focus would be on the development of UCD's and interoperability standards. 6. WA3 report - NW [ppt] 6.1 NW reported on developments in Grid technology. - WA3 is now fully staffed although there are some issues on fully integrating TeraPix effort into the programme. - there was a need to clarify how NGAST technology might be used in the AVO context - AstroGrid is developing an ontology based work-flow system It was AGREED that an IVOA workshop on ontologies in Astronomy should be arranged. FG noted that AstroGrid and partners (MyGrid) should include CDS (Sebastain Derriere - CDS UCD expert) in ontology discussions. ACTION 06-10/09/02: PQ/AL - progress future IVOA ontology workshop. ACTION 07-10/09/02: AL - NGAST and technology choices clarification ACTION 08-10/09/02: AL/FG - establish CDS contact for Ontology work 6.2 NW noted that there would be an upcoming meeting at the NeSC, Edinburgh, 24+25/10/2002 organised by Bob Mann (AstroGrid) and Roy Williams (NVO). The meeting would focus on scientific data mining, integration and visualisation - details and sign-up at http://www.anc.ed.ac.uk/sdmiv/ 11.00-11.20 COFFEE AVO DEMO DISCUSSIONS 7. Jan 2003 AVO Demo overview PQ outlined the context in which the demo is being developed. PQ showed the matrix like structure of the project, with key deliverables for the WA's in the following 3 years. WA 1 2 3 2002 SRM doc interop proto bench - grid,store,db <---- Jan 2003 Demo -------> 2003 AVO req doc pilot projs reports: grid/store/db <------- Aug 2003 Demo -----------> 2004 pilot progs new tools proto data-mining sys <------------ Jan 2004 and Jan 2005 Demos -------> PQ noted that the demos cut across the WA's. MD is charged with managing cross WA activities. In a general discussion of the Jan demo - as described in the outline plan's prepared by PB, FG and MD (documents attached) two issues were highlighted. ACTION 09-10/09/02: MD - update baseline description of the demo to explicitly state that the demo will include the generation of SED plots. ACTION 10-10/09/02: MD- define which capabilities in the Jan 2003 demo will be locally accessible c.f. externally accessible. 8. Demo planning progress discussion MD led an overview of the detailed Sep 11 demo discussions 8.1 WA2 will lead the Jan 2003 demo development programme FG noted that the CDS assessment of the WA1 SWG sub group requirements had employed a bottom up approach FG had created a 'do-able' breakdown of work (see file demobreakdown_V03.doc) taking into account the Jan 2003 deadline. BP emphasised that the SED capability is vital PB stated that the tool to select the objects for SED plotting needed to be flexible. FG discussed the issue cross matching sources FG noted that the the work has been broken down into 5 demo work packages: 8.1.1 WP1 - data - eso, chandra, acs baseline is to have local data access but aim for distributed data sets PQ - need all demo data locally held NW - ensure decent local machines with at least 1TB data storage 8.1.2 WP2 - image and catalogue display access to previews, user selected goods data, needs to be discussed 11/9 PB - fixed catalogues, and list of catalogue objects from the literature - need to be able to differentiate. FG - people on WP3 need to understand how SExtractor works. WP2 - TBD - working with Khembavi in Pune on flexible VOTable display of tabular data, PQ - Aug 2003 demo in Sydney will focus on the distributed capabilities. 8.1.3 WP3 - extraction of catalogue data 8.1.4 WP4 - Re-extraction from pixel data [ppt] MH presented WA3's current analysis of the re-extraction component of the demo. - grid like application that will form a component of the AVO Demo. - web service wrapper around SExtractor application - can run co-located or remotely - fully flexible so that all SExtractor functionality can be accessed - long-lived - AstroGrid Cube Extractor (ACE) implementation plan - nov/dec for system integrate and testing PQ noted that there may be an image transport issue for standards discussion at the Jan 2003 IVOA meeting. 8.1.5 WP5 - SED plot 8.2 WA1 - checking against the draft implementation plan from the SWG/PB. PQ/MD/NW/PB - noted the need to consider what would be included in the Aug 2003 demo - especially the ability to bring in spectral and model data. 8.3 Demo meeting - FG would host a Fri 15 November 2002 meeting at the CDS - AVO in-house science expertise would also be invited to attend. The aim would be to run an alpha version of the baseline demo. A beta version of the demo would be run at AVO Exec meeting mid Dec 2002. 8.4 AR ran through some practicalities of hosting the demo at Jodrell Bank. It was noted that mobile phones are not allowed to be switched on at Jodrell Bank - although AR would investigate an exception for use in a possible press conference ACTION 11-10/09/02: AR - check possible (limited) use of mobile phones in Jodrell. There would be a limit of 50 people at the meeting. It was AGREED that this would be a good upper limit so as to ensure the workshop nature of the meeting. ACTION 12-10/09/02: PB - the 20/21 Demo is arranged under the auspices of the WA1 SWG. PB to issue invites to the SWG, GOODS science team, media representatives, AVO Exec. 8.5 Purpose of the demo PQ noted that the demo would be aimed at the SWG as the primary audience. It would show that the AVO is producing scientifically useful capabilities. It forms the start of an aggressive programme of demonstration capability releases. It was noted that the AVO demo would provide a new capability which would enable science, with an initial focus on supporting exploitation of public access GOODS (and LMC) data sets. The demo would showcase technical progress in the deployment of these scientifically useful capabilities. NW asked as to the longevity of the demo product It was AGREED that the demo capability would be available to users on a zero support basis after the Jan 20/21 2003 demo. The full scope of this continuing availability of the demo would be decided at the mid Dec 2002 AVO meeting. ACTION 13-10/09/02: PQ - Exec meeting #4 agenda item - continuing availability of the demo post 20/21 Jan 2003. 13.20 - 14.20 - LUNCH 9. IVOA activities PQ noted that the IVOA emerged from informal discussions earlier in 2002. The concept of the VO roadmap and demos programme emerged from these discussions with AVO, AstroGrid, NVO colleagues. The IVOA was officially formed at the June 13, 2002 kick off meeting. Members from AstroGrid, AVO and NVO were joined by projects from Australia (eAA), Canada (CVO), India (India-VO), Germany (GAVO) and Russia (RVO). These projects are funded at the following levels: - Canadian C$4M -> 4yr - Australian A$0.5M -> 1yr - Russians have internal funds - GAVO euro 5M - funding to be agreed - Indian VO has some funding The Japanese VO team have been in contact - Kazuhiro Sekiguchi is their contact. PQ noted that the 10 Jan 2003 Seattle IVOA meeting would consider future interoperability standards that will be required by the VO community. ACTION 14-10/09/02: ALL - send PQ for collation suggestions as to future IVOA standards - e.g. Astronomical Query Language, cut out service etc. FG noted that there would be a IVOA sponsored Mar/Apr 2003 meeting in Pune, India. 10. June 2002 VO conference. KG gave a brief meeting report. The conference was considered a success. 30 Sept 2002 is the deadline for proceedings submissions. The conference had a good spread of science and technical input with excellent keynote speeches. PQ noted that highlights of the June meeting were the formation of the IVOA plus positive comments from senior scientists such as Ostriker and Peebles. Also, representatives from the funding agencies were able to see good progress in the area of VO initiatives. The conference was well structured and focused and gave a clear idea of what VO's are about. (c.f. less focused Aspen 2000 meeting). FG commented on the IAU Sydney General Assembly. There would be a Joint Discussion covering VO's and Large Telescopes. This would have a scientific focus to meeting (IAU dictated). Associated IAU Commission V meetings could be used to discuss specific topics. The JD would be 2-3 days in mid July 2003 11. SPIE Meeting Report PQ reported that Alex Szalay organised the VO conference. The focus was on bringing VO techniques to a different audience than the June meeting - including instrument builders. PQ noted a cultural shift in the US - they now think that archives are important and vital to new missions. there is a need for a data heritage. NOAO - now have an archive - includes raw data only just now VOTable now accepted as a standard. NVO want to move on with setting stds - need to deal with this (cut out interface looming as an issue). There will be no explicit VO session in Glasgow - but VO will be integrated into a large/new facilities theme. 12. FP6 Proposal PQ noted that the IVOE expression of interest for FP6 was submitted to the EU - paper attached. This was not submitted to the Integrated Infrastructure Initiative programme but rather the Integrated Projects programme. The proposal was modelled on the CERN proposal. The eventual proposal will be submitted at the end 2003 call and be called 'euro-vo'. A fuller set of partners will be included to include theory data centres. Operational aspects/funds will be asked for as euro-vo will generate a production class capability for Europe. PQ believes that this programme has a reasonable chance of being funded. KG - is this the only funding route for the next level of AVO. PQ - individual organisations could provide continuing funds. NW - funds could come from the funding agencies as VO's are becoming seen as more important in supporting the exploitation of major new astronomical facilities. The FP6 1st call is the end of 2002 - but the EURO-VO proposal will be submitted end 2003. PB - AstroVirtel ends formally spring of 2003 - but extension of programme to end 2003 to support Cycle 3 programme. Maybe that another submission goes in to the EU. PB would like to submit as otherwise there will be a yr delay in AstroVirtel funding. PQ - should put in a coupled submission - AstroVirtel to i3 (Opticon is an example - the old thematic networks - now integrated infrastructure initiatives.) PQ - AstroVirtel would sit in front of the Euro-VO but - FG has some doubts. NW - AstroVirtel FP6 could concentrate on developing algorithms to complement the digital sky and telescope that AVO/euro-vo is building YM - need to remember that the AVO demo's are very similar to what AstroVirtel provides PB - focus of next AstroVirtel proposal will be different to last one. ACTION 15-10/09/02: PQ/PB - Status of AstroVirtel for Dec 2002 Exec meeting Agenda item 13. AOB 13.1 KG on status of new AVO Wiki areas new web site has three layers: - a general vo science area - a professional astronomer layer - a Wiki development layer Lars Christiansen is the graphics adviser for the PR pages MD/KG are responsible for content for the upper two layers NW - when will access be available. PQ - will be available by Nov 15 or before - depends on the domain name Wiki will all be open to the public located at http://www.euro-vo.org. The IVOA area at http://www.ivoa.net will also be hosted on ESO machines. FG - need mailing lists which are relevant for specific topics - eg for UCDs just now. ACTION 16-10/09/02: MD - mailing lists located on the AVO Wiki. 13.2 Need an announcements area for all meetings. 13.3 NW - AOB - Access-grid needs to be looked into as a possible enabling technology for distributed meetings. 13.4 Upcoming meetings: Nov 15 2002 - technical team meeting for baseline demo run - CDS Dec 16 2002 - full Exec plus look at demo run, integrated test, at IoA, Cambridge. Meeting closed at 16.15